19:34 RM: IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION, RAISE YOUR HAND BY TYPING !
19:34 RM: WHEN YOU'RE DONE WITH YOUR QUESTION...
19:34 RM: TYPE GA
19:34 RM: I'LL SIGNAL WHO'S TURN IT IS TO TALK WITH A...
19:35 RM: GA (name)
19:35 RM: OK...
19:35 RM: TONITE'S TOPIC IS THE FIRST PART OF A SERIES ON MASTERING THE MERGE
19:35 RM: WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT A CO-E (OR ROUGHLY CO-E) MERGE
19:36 Big_T: !
19:36 RM: THE KEY TO WINNING FIGHTS...
19:36 RM: IS TO GAIN THE ADVANTAGE ON THE MERGE
19:36 RM: GA BT
19:37 Big_T: co-alt and co-e or ?
19:37 Big_T: ga
19:37 RM: CO-ALT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS CO-E
19:37 Big_T: cc
19:37 RM: ENERGY IS THE IMPORTANT ATTRIBUTE
19:38 RM: ON THE MERGE...
19:38 RM: THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO...
19:38 RM: IS WAIT FOR YOUR OPPONENT TO ACT...
19:38 RM: THEN REACT TO HIM
19:38 RM: YOU MUST ALWAYS BE ON THE ATTACK...
19:38 RM: MAKE HIM REACT TO YOU
19:38 RM: THE BEST WAY TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE ON THE MERGE...
19:39 RM: IS TO DO A LEAD TURN
19:39 RM: TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT YOU NEED FLIGHT PATH SEPARATION
19:39 RM: DOES ANYONE NOT KNOW WHAT FLIGHT PATH SEPARATION IS?
19:40 RM: WE'LL BE PUTTING UP A GRAPHIC IN A SECOND, BUT HERE'S...
19:40 RM: A QUICK EXPLANATION...
19:41 RM: IF YOU GO HEADON AT SOMEONE...
19:41 RM: AND YOU EACH PASS WITHIN SAY 50 FEET...
19:41 RM: THEN THERE IS NO REAL SEPARATION...
19:41 RM: LET'S SAY, HOWEVER...
19:41 RM: YOU TAKE ONE OF THOSE PLANES...
19:42 RM: AND MOVE IT 1000 YARDS TO THE RIGHT...
19:42 RM: NOW THERE IS 1000 YARDS OF SEPARATION
19:42 RM: IF YOU BOTH KEPT GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION...
19:42 RM: YOUR FLIGHT PATHS WOULD ALWAYS BE 1000 YARDS APART...
19:43 RM: LIKE TWO PARALLEL LINES
19:43 Dwarf: !
19:43 RM: FLIGHT PATH SEPARATION...
19:43 RM: ALLOWS THE PLANES TO TURN IN TO EACH OTHER...
19:43 RM: BEFORE PASSING...
19:44 RM: IF ONE TURNS AND THE OTHER DOESN'T...
19:44 RM: THE ONE THAT TURNS CAN EXECUTE A "LEAD TURN"
19:44 RM: AND TIME HIS TURN SUCH THAT HE CAN GET ON THE TAIL OF THE OTHER
19:44 RM: GA DWARF
19:44 Dwarf: So how do you persuade mr enema to give ya the 1000 yds?
19:45 Breeder: !
19:45 RM: WELL THAT CAN BE TOUGH
19:45 RM: USUALLY i FLY OFF TO ONE SIDE OR DOWN...
19:45 Dwarf: GA
19:45 RM: GET THE SEPARATION AND FORCE HIM TO TURN INTO ME...
19:46 RM: IN A HORIZONTAL SITUATION...
19:46 RM: IF HE KNOWS WHAT YOU'RE DOING...
19:46 RM: HE'LL SIMPLY TURN INTO YOU AND NEGATE THE SEPARATION...
19:46 RM: FORCING A HEADON
19:46 RM: THE VERTICAL IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, HOWEVER AND I'LL GET INTO
THAT IN A SEC
19:47 RM: GA BREEDER
19:47 Breeder: do you perceive the lead turn the same for angles fighter and
energy fighters? GA
19:49 RM: A LEAD TURN IS A LEAD TURN...
19:49 RM: REGARDLESS OF THE TYPE OF AIRCRAFT
19:49 Big_T: !
19:49 Breeder: BUT...
19:50 RM: GA BREEDER (AGAIN)
19:50 Breeder: If you lead turn in an energy fighter, aren't you playing
the angles fighters game a little
19:50 RM: NOT AT ALL
19:50 RM: AS A MATTER OF FACT...
19:50 RM: THE LEAD TURN IS THE BEST WAY FOR AN ENERGY
19:50 RM: FIGHTER TO GET A SHOT OFF
19:51 RM: THE KEY TO A LEAD TURN IS...
19:51 RM: NOT TO PULL HARD Gs UNTIL YOU NEED TO
19:51 RM: IT'S A LOW G LEAD UNTIL YOU PASS HIM OR GO FOR THE SHOT
19:52 RM: YOU ARE GAINING ANGLES ON HIM IF YOU LEAD...
19:52 RM: THE WORST YOU'LL DO IS GET A NOSE TO NOSE
19:52 RM: GA BT
19:52 Big_T: I always get into the situation where if the enemy knows
it's me they.........
19:53 Big_T: usually wont give me a lead turn shot unless they fly
straight over me, almost always they force a headon approach
19:53 Big_T: GA
19:53 RM: OK...
19:53 RM: YOU'VE BROUGHT UP A GOOD POINT
19:53 RM: I RARELY GET HORIZONTAL LEAD TURNS ON AN OPPONENT...
19:54 RM: UNLESS HE'S NOT PAYING ATTENTION
19:54 RM: THAT'S WHY I ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY GO FOR THE VERTICAL LEAD
19:55 RM: FIRST GRAPHIC WILL ILLUSTRATE A VERTICAL LEAD
19:59 RM: IN A CO-E MERGE...
19:59 RM: FOR A VERTICAL LEAD...
19:59 RM: THE FIRST STEP IS TO IDENTIFY YOUR OPPONENT'S PLANE AND GAUGE...
19:59 RM: HIS ENERGY
20:00 RM: AT THIS POINT...
20:00 RM: YOU SHOULD HIT WEP...
20:00 RM: AND GET FLIGHT PATH SEPARATION BY DROPPING BELOW HIM
20:01 RM: WE'RE IN THE BLUE PLANE BTW :)
20:01 Big_T: !
20:01 RM: GA BT
20:01 Big_T: and if he drops too.....?
20:02 RM: AMAZING! ANOTHER GOOD QUESTION FROM BT :)
20:02 RM: IF YOU START YOUR DESCENT FIRST...
20:02 RM: YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP BELOW HIM...
20:03 RM: IF HE DIVES...YOU DIVE MORE
20:03 RM: NOW THERE ARE THREE THINGS YOUR OPPONENT CAN DO
20:06 Breeder: !
20:06 RM: GA BREEDED
20:06 Breeder: I find that I have to begin my turn earlier than 1300
(depending on plane of course)
20:07 Breeder: GA
20:07 RM: SOMETIMES YOU MAY...
20:07 RM: IT ALSO DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS DOING...
20:07 RM: AND HOW MUCH SEPARATION YOU HAVE
20:08 RM: I FIND 1300 WORKS WELL WHEN HE DIVES ON YOU...
20:08 RM: AS WE'LL SEE IN THIS GRAPHIC
20:10 RM: IN THIS CASE THE OPPONENT DOVE ON US...
20:10 RM: TO TAKE AWAY FLIGHT PATH SEPARATION
20:11 RM: WHAT'S GOOD FOR US AND BAD FOR HIM...
20:11 RM: IS THAT WE ARE GOING UP AND LOSING SPEED
20:11 RM: WHILE HE IS GOING DOWN AND GAINING SPEED
20:12 RM: OUR TURN RADIUS IS GETTING SMALLER...
20:12 RM: WHILE HIS IS GETTING LARGER
20:12 Kneht: !
20:12 RM: OUR RELATIVE ENERGY STATES STAY PRETTY CLOSE
20:12 RM: BUT WE ARE OUTTURNING HIM
20:12 RM: BECAUSE WE ARE TRADING SPEED FOR ALT...
20:13 RM: AND HE IS TRADING ALT FOR SPEED
20:13 RM: GA KNEHT
20:13 Kneht: can you do this with a plane that bleeds E...
20:13 Kneht: such as a FW Jug or Yak? GA
20:13 RM: YES...BUT THE SECOND SHOT OPPORTUNITY SHOWN ABOVE...
20:14 RM: WILL PROBABLY NOT HAPPEN AND YOU MAY BE FORCED TO SPLIT S...
20:14 RM: AFTER THE FIRST...WHICH ISN'T ENTIRELY BAD
20:14 RM: I FIND MYSELF IN THIS SCENARIO MORE OFTEN THAN ANY OTHER...
20:14 RM: IN THE ARENA
20:14 RM: MOST PEOPLE WANT TO DIVE ON YOU
20:15 RM: AND EVEN GOOD PILOTS WILL NEED TO TAKE AWAY FLIGHT PATH SEPARATION
20:15 RM: SO IF YOU ARE BELOW THEM YOU CAN STILL GAIN A LITTLE LEAD ON THEM
20:15 Dwarf: !
20:15 RM: I OFTEN GET ACCUSED OF HEADONS AT THE FIRST SHOT OPP
20:15 RM: GA DWARF
20:16 Dwarf: Say mr enema sees you dive...
20:17 Dwarf: rolls invert, chops throttle and tries for Split-s T-bone...GA
20:17 RM: CC
20:17 RM: HE REALLY CANT'T DO THAT...
20:17 RM: YOU ARE LEADING HIM...
20:17 RM: IF HE TRIES TO DO THAT THE BEST HE'LL DO IS...
20:18 RM: IS FORCE A NOSE TO NOSE...
20:18 RM: GET STUCK NOSE DOWN ON THE MERGE{-- A DEFINITE NONO!
20:18 RM: AND BE AT A LOWER E STATE
20:18 RM: FOR THE RECORD...
20:19 RM: SPLIT S ON THE MERGE IS PROBABLY THE WORST MANEUVER YOU CAN DO
20:19 RM: IF YOU CAN GET YOUR OPPONENT'S NOSE DOWN WHILE YOURS IS UP...
20:19 RM: YOU WILL WIN THE FIGHT
20:20 RM: THE REASONING IS THAT YOU'RE DROPPING SPEED SO HAVE...
20:20 RM: A BETTER TURN RADIUS AND RATE...
20:20 RM: YOUR OPPONENT IS GAINING SPEED SO IS LOSING ENERGY...
20:20 RM: AND HAS A LARGER TURN RATE
20:21 RM: THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONCEPT...
20:21 RM: I WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS IT BEFORE I GO ON
20:21 RM: MOST MY FIGHTS IN THE ARENA START THIS WAY
20:21 Big_T: !
20:21 RM: MOST MY CO-E FIGHTS THAT IS
20:22 RM: GA BT
20:22 Big_T: as he gains speed is it safe to say he is storing E tho,
and your using yours in the turn? GA
20:22 RM: NOT IF HE IS TURNING...
20:22 Big_T: cc
20:23 RM: IF HE IS TURNING (PULLING G)
20:23 RM: THEN HE IS LOSING MORE RELATIVE TO YOU...
20:23 RM: BECAUSE AT HIGHER SPEEDS YOU LOSE ENERGY
20:23 RM: TO FRICTION, ETC
20:23 Breeder: !
20:24 RM: GA BREEDER
20:24 Breeder: If you DO get caught nose down to NME's nose up,
would the best thing to do be...
20:24 Breeder: to do a low g pullout (assuming you have enuf alt)-
extend and then zoom? GA
20:25 RM: EXACTLY
20:25 RM: GET AWAY AND TRY FOR ANOTHER EQUAL MERGE
20:25 RM: ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS CONCEPT?
20:26 FurBull: ?
20:26 RM: GA FB
20:26 FurBull: trick seems to be dive in front not at oncoming bandit
20:26 RM: RIGHT FB
20:31 RM: ONE MORE THING ON THIS DIAGRAM...
20:32 RM: YOU MAY GET CAUGHT AT A SLIGHT ENERGY DISADVANTAGE...
20:32 RM: IF YOU TRY A DOUBLE IMMEL LIKE I'VE SHOWN HERE...
20:32 RM: BUT WHAT'S GOOD ABOUT GETTING THAT FIRST SHOT OPP...
20:32 RM: IS THAT YOU PING THE GUY IN LESS THAN A REV
20:32 RM: IT REALLY GETS THEM ON THE DEFENSIVE
20:33 RM: NOW WE'LL GO ON TO THE LEVEL SITUATION...
20:33 RM: THIS IS REALLY A NO-BRAINER
20:34 RM: THE DIAGRAM I SHOW HERE WOULD ACTUALLY BE A POORLY EXECUTED...
20:34 RM: LEAD TURN
20:34 RM: BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO REDRAW THE WHOLE THING :)
20:35 RM: NOT MUCH TO SAY HERE...
20:35 RM: EXCEPT THAT THE ONLY THING YOUR OPPONENT _MAY_ DO...
20:36 RM: IS A FLAT TURN...
20:36 RM: IF HE DOES, THEN YOU ROLL WHILE VERTICAL TO PULL TOWARD HIM
20:36 RM: BY DEFINITION HE WILL BE SHOWING YOU HIS SIX
20:38 RM: IF YOUR OPPONENT GOES UP WHILE YOU ARE DOWN...
20:38 RM: YOU MAY HAVE A PROBLEM...
20:38 RM: BUT NOT NECESSARILY
20:39 RM: IF HE LOOPS UP AND OVER, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FOLLOW HIM
20:39 RM: BY HANGING ON THE PROP AND USING FLAPS
20:39 Breeder: !
20:39 RM: YOU WILL HAVE A GOOD POSITION IN THIS CASE, THOUGH A
_SLIGHT_ ENERGY
20:39 RM: DISADVANTAGE
20:40 RM: GA BREEDER
20:40 Breeder: what if he waits to zoom until you have looped over...
20:40 Breeder: then zooms and it is more dangerous to follow GA
20:40 RM: OH...
20:40 RM: I THAT CASE YOU WILL BE BEHIND HIM...
20:41 RM: AND NEED TO RECOGNIZE WHAT HE IS DOING
20:41 RM: KEEP YOUR SPEED UP
20:41 RM: AND WAIT FOR HIM TO MAKE A MOVE THEN PULL INTO HIM
20:41 Big_T: !
20:41 RM: THE ENRGY DISPARITY WILL NOT BE SO GREAT...
20:41 Breeder: a follow up?
20:42 RM: THAT HE CAN GAIN TOO MUCH ON YOU
20:42 RM: GA BREEDER
20:42 RM: BT NEXT
20:42 Breeder: I am assuming that you pulling gs are using E and he is
keeping his by extending
20:42 Breeder: He should be significantly faster, yes? GA
20:43 RM: SOMEWHAT
20:43 RM: EXCEPT THAT AS I SAID EARLIER...
20:43 RM: YOU PULL LOW Gs UNTIL YOU CONVERT
20:44 RM: THEREFORE YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP TOO MUCH ENERGY
20:44 RM: AND IF YOU START THE FIGHT WITH A _LITTLE_ MORE E...
20:44 RM: THAN YOUR OPPONENT...
20:44 RM: THEN YOU CAN FOLLOW HIM INTO THIS...
20:44 RM: AND HE IS IN TROUBLE...
20:44 Breeder: ok - thx
20:45 RM: WHICH MAKES THAT MOVE A VERY RISKY PROPOSITION ON HIS PART
20:45 RM: GA BT
20:45 Big_T: if you notice him going up early enuf, can you stop your
verticle lead and extend (as shown
20:45 Big_T: in the left blue line).....
20:45 RM: YES...THAT'S WHY THAT'S THERE
20:45 RM: YOU WOULD DO THIS IF YOU REALIZE THAT...
20:45 Big_T: and then force a headon by meeting him at the top or close
to the top of his loop? GA
20:46 RM: MAYBE HE HAD A LITTLE MORE E THAN YOU THOUGHT...
20:46 RM: HE MAY BE TRYING TO ZOOM TO FORCE YOU INTO A ROPE
20:46 RM: IF I HAD GOOD SPEED AT THIS POINT AND HE DID TOO...
20:47 RM: I WOULDN'T LOOP
20:47 RM: I'D EXTEND AND MAKE HIM COME BACK TO ME
20:47 RM: IF YOU ARE BOTH FAST ENOUGH...
20:47 RM: HE WON'T BE ABLE TO TURN AROUND QUICKLY ENOUGH...
20:47 RM: TO GET ANYWHERE CLOSE TO GOOD POSITION
20:48 RM: THEN YOU CAN EXTEND AND TURN BACK FOR ANOTHER MERGE
20:48 RM: ANY OTHER QUESTIONS?
20:48 DDave: !
20:49 RM: GA DDAVE
20:49 FurBull: !
20:49 DDave: defense against said tactices?...
20:49 DDave: or just dont be the red plane :)
20:49 RM: HEHE IT'S TOUGH...
20:50 RM: IF I SEE SOMEONE DIVING ON THE MERGE...
20:50 RM: I TRY TO GET DOWN WITH THEM
20:50 RM: BUT MAKE SURE WHEN YOU PASS THAT YOU ARE AT LEAST LEVEL
20:50 RM: YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR NOSE DOWN ON THE MERGE!
20:51 FurBull: trick to vert lead turn seems to be to get below ur
opponent first
20:51 RM: RIGHT FB
20:52 RM: IF YOU GET DOWN FIRST...
20:52 RM: THEN HE IS ALWAYS TRYING TO CATCH UP
20:52 FurBull: !
20:52 RM: GA FB
20:53 FurBull: Fwiw, Peter Bonnani's ART OF THE KILL book/video does
good job on this too
20:53 Kneht: !
20:53 RM: THANKS GUYS...
20:53 RM: I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THE VIRTUES...
20:54 RM: AND DANGERS OF THE VERTICAL LEAD
20:54 RM: GA KNEHT
20:54 Kneht: Should you drop alt and wep on vis or on con? GA
20:55 RM: DEPENDS ON IF YOU HAVE DAR OR NOT
20:55 RM: IF YOU KNOW WHAT TYPE OF PLANE HE HAS...
20:56 RM: YOU MAY WANT TO ENTER A SLIGHT DIVE PRIOR TO CON...
20:56 RM: BUT IF YOU GO TOO EARLY HE CAN REACT
20:57 Sky Viper: !
20:57 RM: GA VIPER
20:58 Sky Viper: I am new to FR...in a Geo to Zeke situatiion, will
this work for either plane?
20:58 Sky Viper: given max level E
20:59 RM: INITIALLY, YES
20:59 RM: I ALWAYS VERTICAL LEAD A ZEKE
20:59 RM: YOU CAN ALWAY DROP THE NOSE LOW AND GET OUT IF HE...
21:00 RM: DOESN'T FALL FOR IT
21:00 FurBull: !
21:02 RM: GA FB
21:02 FurBull: most dangerous opponents in vert lead are those with
good climb rate, correct?
21:03 RM: ACTUALLY ZOOM IS MOST DANGEROUS
21:04 RM: WILL EITHER BE A POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE ENERGY MERGE
21:04 FurBull: !
21:04 Big_T: !
21:05 RM: GA FB
21:05 FurBull: which are best zoomers? P-47? F-4?
21:05 RM: P51...P38, f4 GOOD TOO
21:06 RM: F6 NOT BAD
21:06 RM: GA BT
21:06 Big_T: let's say a Ki or similar plane has gotten the drop on an
F4 or F6 and the turning has begun...
21:07 Big_T: why is it I notice when Im at my prime E state and prime
turn rate that they sometimes outturn...
21:07 Big_T: me even if just for the first pass, altho I can almost
always get on their 6 in this situation....
21:07 RM: HMMM...THAT DEPENDS ON A LOT OF THINGS
21:07 Big_T: I wouldnt think that they would be outturning me at that
point, network stuff mebbe??? GA
21:08 RM: INSTANTANEOUS TURN RATE COMES INTO EFFECT THERE
21:08 RM: AN F4 CAN CRANK IT AROUND AT 190 KIAS
21:08 Big_T: instant vs sustained?
21:09 RM: AND AN F6 ISN'T THAT MUCH WORSE OF A TURNER THAN KI
21:09 RM: OK...I GOTTA GO
21:09 RM: THANKS FOR COMING FOLKS
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