Cld: any questions?
Bummer: There are a few pilots, like Bingo, who can get the 51
turned around in a most amazing time. How they do that?
Cld: prolly has his nose down or a IAS around 190-220 and using his flaps down low and if you can hold 180-190 IAS, you can pull 6 g's with use of flaps. Or are u talking in the vertical?
Bop: yeah Makes Oz cranky
Bummer: Actually I'm not sure, it is just quicker than I ever expect
Cld: well in 51, that is how it has to be done
Cld: unexpected
Bop: it's like the P38 in that way
Bummer: How much in the way of flaps
Cld: only use first notch (like Bop said about the 38) and when ur speed drops to around 190, u will have to use that first notch to maintain 6 g's . . however, by the time u reach 190 IAS, you will have to keep ur nose low to keep speed up. know how to practice this?
Bummer: no
Shadownyc: do tell
Cld: any of you have off-line play?
Hotrail: cc
Bummer: <raises hand>
Cld: OK, climb to 10,000 plus, then start a nose low turn. Let ur speed get . . up to say 200, keep a big part of your attention on the G meter . . let it tell you how much up or down you need to keep ur nose to maintain 6 g's. trick is to watch that G meter
Bummer: I think I'm usually in danger of blackout between 5.5 and 6 g?
Cld: go as high as you can sustain without that happening then, do it again, but use flaps off and on to see how they help say as you go below 190 IAS, drop ur flap, as you drop ur nose a little . . to hold that high g, then when u get above 190, raise flaps make little corrections, not big, try to get into a groove you can maintain a turn with a spit nose down, if he makes a mistake like build to much speed, you can turn inside him
Cld: Shebop, hit Bop now!
hehehe
Cld: hehe
Cld: OK where was I
Cld: any ? so far?
Shadownyc: Can you tell me why I should be flying the 51 in the arena? advantages?
Cld: Its a challenge? . . what type of flying do you like?
Shadownyc: I'm a stall fighter but I have run into you...
Bop: AND it kicks As err Butt a couple times and noticed you handled the 51 pretty well
Cld: thanks
Shadownyc: Just want to know 51 basics, why you like it.
Cld: well, I like its quick turning ability around 190-220 I like it because, its hard for another plane to run from
Shadownyc: hehe
Cld: it has good ammo load, it can take a little punishment and its basically a hard plane to put into a spin
Bop: and kill Bebop in a one ping head-on.<G>
Shadownyc: not for me...
Bummer: or me
Cld: and fuel to stay up for a while
Cld: oh, its hard to see also
Bop: Don't forget it's the Best Dive-bomber
Cld: hehe not much good for that without Strat
Shadownyc: how does it handle at 450IAS? compared to spit?
Bop: Acks and Pesky FPs.<G>
Cld: like it does at 250
Shadownyc: cool
Cld: u start to loose controls around 500
Cld: Ailerons go first
Cld: nothing like a 500 kill
Cld: IAS that is
Bop: And it rolls better the faster you go
Cld: true
Shadownyc: I've only flown it about 3-4 times in the arena (and once in a lucky duel with Bebop's squadmate...
Shadownyc: But when I try to fly it with any nose-up, I get into spins...don't go nose-up?
Cld: what i see a lot of people do wrong with it is (in a lower speed fight co-E) . . is go nose up
Shadownyc: D'Oh!
Cld: once I'm below 250, i usually stay out of the nose up, unless its a hi yo-yo type move. most plane can turn (flip) over in the vertical better. Know what causes you to spin (most of the time)?
Cld: Rash, what causes me to spin?
Cld: OK let me tell ya
Bop: pulling yer stick.<G>
Cld: pulling your stick in 2 axis at the same time. Stay in there true up and down or the left and right and be easy on the rudder
Cld: one thing that is tricky at low speed is if ur around 150 IAS and ur nose is slightly up go full rudder, say left, and give it full left aileron u will roll real fast, nearly 180 degs but if you do it wrong, yo u will spin
Shadownyc: got film of that? <G>
Cld: prolly
Shadownyc: OK, I done...Thx Rash
Cld: what is a good skill for 51 pilot to have?
Cld: a must
Bummer: patience?
Bop: Arms?
Cld: hehe
Zombie: SA
Cld: are arms or patience a skill?
Bop: <Hangs head>
Bummer: <cuts off little finger>
Cld: hehe, need to shoot straight
Bop: Umm Good Gunnery
Cld: give that guy a finger
Bop: specially when you have 30% ammo
Cld: true, have to get real close when u are shooting bb's
Cld: try this off line . . .set up a drone fighter try to set up a kill over its home field. kill it, wait for him to come up, kill it again . . so on so on but!, see how many you can kill with 1 ammo load: basically vulch. Conserve, make very shot hit the target
Bop: ahh you use ammo too huh?<G>
Cld: hehe and conserve
Cld: if you can kill it 10 times, u are on the right track
Cld: it really help me shake the shaky shooting i use to have
Bop: 109s always give me fits in the P51 any suggestions?
Cld: type faster please
Bop: You weenie
Shadownyc: hehe
Bop: that's my line
Cld: hehe, well if he is trying to make you get ur nose pointed up, well don't
Bop: Usually if the guy knows what he is doing that's what he does
Cld: try to get his down, one thing most planes don't have above is the use of flaps. if he knows what he is doing, i try to leave. make sense?
Shadownyc: Bop, u understand leave?
Shadownyc: I don't think he does rash
Bop: yeah, try and get him fast to blackout?
Bop: Bebop NEVER LEAVES.<G>
Cld: OK. let me go back to the beginning First everyone knows the saying that 2 equally skilled pilots meet, the one with the better plane wins , usually? OK, in 51 u are not going to out-turn a skilled pilot with = or better skill in most planes, but you can out-turn a pilot with less skill, but in better plane. When i turn in a 51, i like to hold close to 5-6 g's as possible. and that is done by keeping ur nose down. I try to force a mistake like a black-out
Bop: Hey that what I said><G>
Cld: I keep an eye on him, and when he does B-O, i try to gain angles
Cld: yes u did
Hotrail: B-O?? Bali Out?
Hotrail: err bail
Cld: hehe can be
Bop: D'oh
Cld: Black-out
Blackpanther: blackout
Shadownyc: Body Odor, Black Out
Hotrail: ah..OK duh
Hotrail: They never bail when I am near..only GB
Bop: hehe
Cld: hehe
Cld: OK, i try to set my opponent up to make a mistake. and a good way to do that is, maintain the appearance that you are only going to do some basic dweeb maneuver, like split-s or Immelmann and wait till last sec to do something else. holding on till the last possible second is very important
Bop: "I'm only a poor P51 pilot, I mean you No harm." hehe
Bohica: Runstang Jockey
Cld: thats it, run for a little while, if you are getting to far a head . slow up a little
Shadownyc: IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU'RE BEING DRAGGED
Bohica: I like to climb a bit to slow up and wait for the guy
Cld: I don't mean run for a whole sector, run 30-60 seconds
Cld: cc, that works to
Bop: AFK
Cld: but when you finally decide to do something, do it to the max
limits if your going to pitch back, make sure you can complete it at max g's. If you are above 250, he will have to do the same to follow Always put a turn or twist into it and try to hold max g's the whole time don't start a pitch-back, then let off the stick to to roll 90 degs then go back into max g's again, keep the g's up through the maneuver
Bummer: Sorry, I don't know a pitch-back by that name
Bop: Back
Cld: OK, say you are flying straight, roll about 45 degs, then pull back sort of like an Immelmann, kind of like a high yo-yo
Bummer: OK, an oblique loop might be another name?
Cld: cc you are correct sir
Bummer: got it, thanx
Cld: never do a Immelmann unless you have big e advantage on opponent. another thing i do when i have bandit on 6 .
Bop: AFK
Cld: OK, I'm fast and level, bandit is closing or maintain distance at around 1.5-1.9k, I will say, roll left, pull back on stick a little, then roll back to right, and do for example, a pitch-back, but when i have my nose pointed up, roll to the left maybe 45-90 degs. all the while, pulling those g's. what would the fake to left do?
Bohica: sounds like vertical scissors
Cld: maybe, he will chop throttle, so he would be able to turn inside me .
Cld: can be
Bohica: throw him out of sync and force an error on his part
Shadownyc: !
Cld: so lets say he chopped his throttle, OK you cause him to loose some E
Cld: yeah thats the whole point, don't let him plan his moves
Cld: make him react to yours
Cld: if you do what he plans, you can die quick
Cld: I was just giving an example of what to do to mix things up
Cld: do just do 1 standard move after another
Cld: go ahead Shad
Shadownyc: u answered it.
Cld: what was it?
Shadownyc: What happens if he sees this...u die
Shadownyc: Oh, wait, I read that wrong...
Shadownyc: What do u do at the top when u have low E and he saw what u did?
Cld: rgr, with a good pilot, u can die, but perform your moves at max g's
Cld: it is important to pull the nose of the 51 back down, while you still have the speed watch what he does
Shadownyc: what speed at say 10k?
Cld: to start vertical maneuver or finish?
Shadownyc: to get ur nose down
Shadownyc: before u die
Cld: if you have at least 190 IAS, and use the flaps, u can pull down in a hurry. it's kind of funny to watch people in the maneuver i just stated. some will go for the fake left totally, some would just keep flying straight into a zoom (good thing to do for him), some will just pull (and i guess) just black out (holding there stick back) and be floating in ur gun range (they look lost)
Bohica: not for long!
Cld: true, but long enough for you to get an advantage u didn't have
Bohica: long enuf for a trip to HQ
Cld: hehe, the trick, skill need for the type of flying a p51 is good at is avoiding blackouts
Cld: SB you like the barrel roll don't ya
Bohica: yup and the lag roll also
Bop: I like the Jelly Roll
Cld: hehe
Shadownyc: hehe
Bohica: I use the barrel roll as a defensive maneuver and the lag roll to pull lead on the poor guy that doesn't expect it
Cld: do you use many g's?
Bohica: bout 4 or 5 with both
Cld: and why do u use this many g's?
Bohica: the barrel roll...the guy is trying to follow me around... if I'm pulling max g's and he's trying to get a firing solution. to get that solution he had to pull more than max g's or slow down...either one gives me an advantage of separation and he -may- black out...and I can reverse the position and grab the kill
Cld: he types faster then me Bop , nice SB
Bop: Yes He do
Bohica: thanks ...BTW Rash is quiet in person too
Cld: can be
Bohica: unless he's made too many trips to the bar <g>
Bop: He not quiet in AWTA when I not around
Bop: Then he does poorly in Spin recovery.<G>
Cld: hehe,
Cld: what does the barrel roll do that a split-s or Immelmann doesn't?
Cld: or give u?
Bohica: keeps you going in the same heading that you started in
Cld: which is the direction the bandit is going
Bohica: I do it running home and hollering for help
Cld: yeah good move keep point at home
Bohica: also you keep your alt...barrel roll can be real effective down low
Bohica: you may auger the bandit if he pulls too hard at the wrong time
Cld: OK guys . . things a 51 pilot need to know --
Cld: how to do a sustained nose down turn (a rolling turn maintaining g's can help) meaning rolling into another direction under g's
Cld: need to be able to hold ur stick steady for a good firing solution. need to learn to work the flaps
Bohica: do you use full flaps in the 51 Rash?
Bop: To stop on runway.<G>
Cld: at speed of 220- down, lower them to turn better, raise and low nose to gain speed
Cld: never
Bohica: cc thanks
Cld: first setting is all i use
Bop: I use second to get that last precious shot off
Bohica: <lite clicks on:now I know why I die in our H2H <g>
Cld: why?
Bohica: you're managing your energy better
Cld: not a good manager of E, i use it
Cld: OK most of (all of it really) has been to do with defensive flying
Cld: anyone want to talk offensive? B&Z? E-fighting?
Bummer: yes! Best b&z technique plz
Bohica: time for me to turn in..nite all
Shadownyc: nite SB
Cld: nite SB
Bop: Nite SB
Bohica: poof!
Bohica just exited the teleconference.
Cld: basic . . I like to come in at equal alt. or 1k lower then my target and when i fly through him, i already want my nose pointed up (in case i BO) <g>. OK, when do i start to fire?
Bop: depends on yer speed
Cld: OK, when u b&z, u will be traveling fast (should be 300+). when I'm about 2k away, i will keep my eye on the target and nothing else, watching the flow of the fight, this way i can make a minor adjustment to my flight path for best 6 shot.Say they are circling left to right in a furball, and when you have it figured out that the plane will be traveling in the part of the circle that is closest to you going left to right so, you will want to swing to the left just a little, then swing in behind him go the same direction as he is. try not to follow him to far around, or u will pass out OK when to fire? well after 2k, i don't look at the icon range if I'm fasts so, on my FE, the planes change shape around 1k out so i know within a sec or 2, i will be in range. IF you realize that u don't have shot, don't force it. go into a shallow zoom, and try again. any questions, thats the basics.
Bop: How far do you know to extend
Cld: main thing is exit with ur nose pointed level or slightly up IMHO. extend, depends on how much E the bandit has (in example) he has. nothing compared to mine. so you could be wasteful, and turn around quick, which would be the beginnings of E fighting. if it's a crowded arena, a long zoom would be better to check around for a bandit getting ready to B&Z you. If all looks clear, reverse and try again
Bop: OK
Cld: often, as soon as i pass through my target, I will do a roll to check around real quick, just in case someone has slipped in on me-- man i have a problem with quick hehe
Bop: hehe
Cld: If i spot a lone bandit I try to climb high, before i get into his con range then come in fast a high rear quarter shot. a lot of people don't look in that area enough
Shadownyc: That don't apply to Amigas
Bop: yup Just gotta make sure you aren't coming too straight down on him
Cld: in that case, i might let nose be pointed down as i pass through him right straight down is bad- u will loose to much e, and he will have advantage in most cases
Bop: Blue good, Green Baaad
Shadownyc: :P
Cld: hehe
Bop: Not countries ya Chowderhead Shadow.<G>
Bop: Sky and ground
Shadownyc: D'Oh!
Shadownyc: what if ur over water? <G>
Cld: hope u learned . . . .something? guys
Bop: well then Dark blue Baaaad Light blue Good
Shadownyc: Yeah, I learned how to kill 51s...quicker
Cld: hehe yeah make him go nose up
okay folks, we'll end here...thanks Rash.
Bummer: It's not bad, we just bathed the sheep in food coloring
Tomorrow night - Robert Shaw, and Wednesday the second half of this class... and that be all she wrote.
Zombie: That's what I'm here for Shadow. Thx Rash!
Bummer: Rash, thanks a lot, I will not straight loop ANY more!
Cld: oh man, i have to follow mouse :(
Shadownyc:
Cld: keep that nose down, once u hook-up, only chance u have in turn-fight: if u go nose down with Yak, however, u will die quick
Cld: hehe
Bummer: are you on Wed also?
Cld: cc
Bummer: see ya tomorrow, or then
END LOG



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